While i would probably get the operation done off the books if offered, because it is necessary and maybe Gods hand offering the way out. Only prayer and hearing from God in the situation can tell us if this is the case.

But in the case of farmer’s gas, who said anything about the right to drive? Drive less, you might meet some interesting people on the bus. You might be healthier on a bike. You might realize that you only need to goto work a few days a week if you got rid of that cash sucking car ( or TVs, internet, new clothes, etc.). And similarly for most other forms of consumption of goods. Why get a discount on a “hot” TV when really you’re better off without a tv? If you’re better off without it, ~any~ price is too much.

my2c

And I wonder not only about the legality but also about the ethics of secretly operating a day care that hasn’t been inspected for sanitation and safety.

My own son, for example, was nearly injured when I left him with a woman who was running exactly such an operation–too late, I discovered she was letting the kids play out in the front in the driveway that led direct to the street. There I found them swarming over a van, climbing up on the rear-end ladder, and jumping up and down on it. Reminding her that just a couple of weeks earlier a little boy had been killed when he was jumping up and down on the rear ladder of a van and the transmission had slipped out of “park” elicited a blank look. The child fell off and was run over by both the rear and front tires as the vehicle rolled down the driveway into the road.

If one decides to do business with unlicensed operators, one takes one’s chances, I guess.

Speaking of roads and socialism, the United States has been a “socialist” country as long as its federal, state, county, and city governments have built roads, schools, libraries, and other such baleful tools. A road forces us to drive along specific routes that we might not choose to use if it were legal for us to take off cross-country, through whatever backyard and across whatever and park we choose. Libraries force us to read the holdings that libraries can afford to buy. Schools…horrors! Don’t get me started!!! Then there’s the army, the ultimate socialistic institution, which takes our children away and subjects them to death and dismemberment. It’s all been going on for a lot longer than 50 years. Maybe even since 1776 or so. What on earth can we do to reverse this trend?

On the other hand, to argue that a god has put leaders, no matter how good or evil, in place for some cosmic reason and therefore we must obey is to argue that Adolf Hitler rose because God had a reason for killing every Jew, homosexual, and mentally retarded person the Germans could get their hands on, and therefore it was right and meet that the Germans should obey. It just doesn’t make sense.

To argue that civil disobedience is justified when a leader tells you to disobey God is to assume that you really do know what God wants, and, we might add, that one’s own vision of God a) is true and b) applies to everyone else. Isn’t a bit presumptuous?

Using the scriptures about “give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, to God what is God’s”, as well as those already mentioned about obedience to authority, I don’t think this area is very muddy at all.

We obey the laws of our land, and the authorities who create and enforce them unless there is a direct contradiction to God’s word. For example, if reading a Bible is banned – I would obey God’s word and read anyway.

We are not guaranteed protection for doing this – take a look at the countless Christians martyred from Stephen on, but we are guaranteed eternal rewards that “far outweigh them all”. (2Cor 4:16-18)

In this black market scenario, there are some things that do not jive with God’s word – i.e. allowing a child to suffer when the treatment they need can be obtained before the gov’t would allow it. I know I would take care of my child first.

However – as far as taxes go, God’s word is clear. Pay them. In the US, specifically, where we have a say in our gov’t; I believe that if we have voted, called representatives to make our desires known, and done what we can to help shape laws, then we can stand before God clean, no matter what the gov’t uses the taxes for. And praise God, we can work between elections to raise up others to stand with us for truth and justice and rightness.

The question is: Is God really in control or not? His word says that he IS in control, and has not only allowed the leaders we have, but has PUT THEM IN PLACE for a purpose. (Rom 13:1-6). We don’t have to agree with/support the government, only submit to its authority where it is under God’s. He promises over and over and over to provide for our needs, and even though that doesn’t always look like what we think it will, we can trust him to do right by us. Even if all we have is a cardboard box and a few stray crusts, if our heart is right before God, there is nothing on this earth that can take away our inheritance in Christ as a citizen of heaven.

I hope I made sense…GREAT discussion.

Never mind religion. As a “human being” I will get my child the operation. You dont need religion to have common sense.

Anyways, I propose that you do another post debating the concept of laissez-faire. Because you are not debating how close countries come to the actual concepts of socialism and communism, you are debating what you see to be the real world effects of these policies. A market economy is no different. Adam Smith’s idea of an invisible hand is just that, an idea. The idea of letting the market figure things out ignores reality, which is that you can’t predict what people will do and how they will act. It ignores the fact that capitalism is skewed toward the rich, who already have more money and resources than the rest of us and slant the playing field accordingly. It didn’t envision monopolies or price setting between companies. For workers to have any say (without unions), requires that there be more than enough jobs in any particular field so that if a worker is dissatisfied they can leave, and so that the owner does not feel they can treat their workers poorly and with impunity.

Additionally, in capitalism (I know I am conflating capitalism with laissez-faire, but I honestly don’t see how to separate the two in reality),the goal is profits. There are clearly too many people, Christians included, who take this to its utmost extreme. For instance, one government control on production, that of laws and regulations related to the FDA, arose because of the number of people who died and became sick from canned foods. If we didn’t have environmental regulations I don’t think companies would care what they did in that regard either. I don’t think laissez-faire works in these areas because if you are very poor and cannot produce your own food, or cannot afford to live in an area that doesn’t have contaminated water, ground, etc., then the market does you no good, because you have to take the cheapest option regardless of the consequences on you and your family.

Lastly, I am curious as to why the concept at least of something like socialism does not appeal to more Christians. In theory, they are aimed at providing all people with a certain level of comfort, i.e. home, food, health, by spreading that cost across society as a whole. In concept, this seems very much along Christian values and akin to tithing, except that your charity is required. The realities of socialism can be debated, but I’ve always thought that capitalism is much more antithetical to many Christian values than socialism is. And ultimately, while there are many things within government that I wish my taxes weren’t going towards, there are also many services that are provided with my money that are very worthwhile (as someone with a sister who has Down’s Syndrome I know that on a very personal level). If you aren’t willing to part with some of your money to the government, then I don’t see that you would be willing to part with much of your money or time to a person in need either.

Thought provoking post with great scenarios. So allow me to add my two cents worth.

We are people under authority…parents, teachers, church leaders, government, etc. Because we honor God by honoring the authorities he has established, we must do so up to the point where the delegated authority requires us to act contradictory to the Supreme Authority (God himself).

I think we Christians need to be very careful about justifying disobedience to a delegated authority, be it parents or government, just because the one in authority is less than noble. After all, Peter challenged his readers to “honor the emperor”, (1 Peter 2:17)who many historians believe was Nero at the time.

The time for civil disobedience is when the authority orders us to disobey God. The same Peter said to the Jewish leaders, “We must obey God rather than man” Acts 5:29 Daniel continued his habit of prayer after the kind issued an edict not to. Why? Because he didn’t want to dishonor God.

I might have gotten off track a bit with the black market questions, but these priciples of authority are good principles to go by.

I’m with you and I’m bringing the chips!

Micki, self-employment is the area of greatest temptation. There are many places where honesty can cost you money.

Good discussion, I hope there is more.